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  1. #1
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    Pex Hose vs Soft Hose Update

    For those who are interested:


    Just want to make sure you all knew that we are still monitoring this. I do have a statement from our production and engineering team that I would like to post out for you. I know it may not be what all want to hear, and I am sure there will be differing opinions on it, but we did feel it needed to be posted! I will be cross posting this on some other threads as well!

    "The TS-25 standard for Flexible Hose allows the use for both, hot and cold waterlines. The RV industry has used the hose on the PEX barbed fittings for more than 15 years with success along with the use of the Oetiker clamp rings that have a 20 year warranty. This installation has been successful as the PEX fitting are listed just as the PEX tubing for high heat, just as the flexible hose and PEX tubing.

    Production uses the hose in order to have less fittings within the system as for every fitting such as an elbow, you reduce flow within the system 5% leaving consumers less satisfied with performance. The use of the flexible hose is actually better than using the hose assemblies listed as “risors” due to the risor having smaller fittings than our typical PEX fittings. Also, the risor type hose assemblies are less than stellar and often were breaking on the connectors…mostly due to not being equivalent to the PEX fittings we use. All of that said, using the listed flexible high pressure, high heat flexible hose along with our PEX fittings is truly a better install allowing a better system as the end result.

    RVIA along with an ADHOC committee are working with the testing agencies to produce a new listing for the installation as there are hoses out there, which we do not use, that are less than acceptable due to the ID of the hose and OD and the way they meet on the barbed fittings. We know there are other manufacturers using the hoses within the industry but currently, the size requirements are not within the standard for listing. We will have this update completed soon so all flexible hoses used within the RV industry will be the correct size and mate well with the fittings. Again, we do not use the hose that is less than stellar."

  2. #2
    Site Team
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    Thank you Emily. We appreciate! It's great to see you on the forum. #GDPlumbing
    Chris
    Chris Tretta
    Albuquerque, NM

    2013 Ram 3500 Megacab 4x4 6.7L Cummins
    2019 Grand Design 385GK
    2014 Grand Design 369RL - Sold
    Class A CDL, Doubles/Triples, Hazmat and Tanker endorsements


  3. #3
    Seasoned Camper 2825Matheny's Avatar
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    I'm not in agreement.
    The ID of the flexible braded poly hose is much larger than the ID of PEX. It does sort of seal when used with a PEX fitting, but only because of the excessive compression of the clamp.
    The other aspect of a secure dependable seal is noting that poly hose/PEX fitting joinery is used in a mobile 4.0 earthquake. Initially the pairing of that hose and a PEX fitting will be OK. But, once the hose is pressurized it swells and with the earthquake movement it sees it is just a matter of time until it starts to drip.
    I have removed all braided poly hose and replaced it with PEX tubing. PEX tubing and PEX fittings are made for each other.
    GD has admitted there is a better fitting for the braided poly tube and the only reason they don't use it is because they don't want to stock multiple size fittings. That is not in the best interest of the customer that has to deal with drips when the system is used and subjected to movement.
    Just because that's the way it's always been done defies the principal of continuous improvement for the benefit of the customer.
    Quote Originally Posted by EStahley View Post
    For those who are interested:


    Just want to make sure you all knew that we are still monitoring this. I do have a statement from our production and engineering team that I would like to post out for you. I know it may not be what all want to hear, and I am sure there will be differing opinions on it, but we did feel it needed to be posted! I will be cross posting this on some other threads as well!

    "The TS-25 standard for Flexible Hose allows the use for both, hot and cold waterlines. The RV industry has used the hose on the PEX barbed fittings for more than 15 years with success along with the use of the Oetiker clamp rings that have a 20 year warranty. This installation has been successful as the PEX fitting are listed just as the PEX tubing for high heat, just as the flexible hose and PEX tubing.

    Production uses the hose in order to have less fittings within the system as for every fitting such as an elbow, you reduce flow within the system 5% leaving consumers less satisfied with performance. The use of the flexible hose is actually better than using the hose assemblies listed as “risors” due to the risor having smaller fittings than our typical PEX fittings. Also, the risor type hose assemblies are less than stellar and often were breaking on the connectors…mostly due to not being equivalent to the PEX fittings we use. All of that said, using the listed flexible high pressure, high heat flexible hose along with our PEX fittings is truly a better install allowing a better system as the end result.

    RVIA along with an ADHOC committee are working with the testing agencies to produce a new listing for the installation as there are hoses out there, which we do not use, that are less than acceptable due to the ID of the hose and OD and the way they meet on the barbed fittings. We know there are other manufacturers using the hoses within the industry but currently, the size requirements are not within the standard for listing. We will have this update completed soon so all flexible hoses used within the RV industry will be the correct size and mate well with the fittings. Again, we do not use the hose that is less than stellar."
    Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk
    Peggy and Jamey Matheny
    2016 Grand Design Solitude 5th Wheel 369RL Serial #G1104808
    As of 19 April 2019, 792 nights and 23,887 trailer miles.
    2015 Ford F-250 4X4 Super Cab SRW 148" WB 6.7L Powerstroke Diesel

  4. #4
    Site Sponsor Cate&Rob's Avatar
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    2825Matheny - Well said. I am in complete agreement with the points that you make. This was the rationale that I followed in replacing all the soft hose in my Reflection with Pex pipe. https://www.mygrandrv.com/fo...968#post171968

    Rob
    Cate & Rob
    2015 Reflection 303RLS

  5. #5
    Long Hauler howson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2825Matheny View Post
    ...because that's the way it's always been done...
    In addition, just because it meets a minimum spec, "The TS-25 standard for Flexible Hose allows the use for both, hot and cold waterlines.", doesn't mean GD can't make it better when it is known the existing practice causes issues.
    2017 Ford F-350 DRW 6.7L Platinum
    2019 315RLTS (purchased 16 Jul 18 from Campers Inn RV in Byron, GA)

  6. #6
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    I think one issue that causes problems is the limited size of the kant-leak (?SP) system. However on my unit with the blank wall that sets the face back from the door there is plenty of room to space out the valves to be able to use the PEX pipe and fittings. This is just my humble opinion. However I am guessing thoes Kant-leak panels comm from another supplier.
    Another solution is to move the black tank flush fitting to beside the tank outlet as was the case on my old unit. This would free up space.

    Just thinking here
    Keith
    2018 Reflection 150 Series 220RK 5th wheel with 6K axle upgrade. B&W 25K OEM Companion, Steadyfast system, 2022 F350 SRW 6.7 King Ranch 8' bed, Trailer reverse lights, rear spare tire holder, storage tube, sumo springs, Victron MultiPlus 12/120/3000, and Solar

  7. #7
    Seasoned Camper 2825Matheny's Avatar
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    I've been using my upgraded plumbing system for over 2 years.
    It's leak free, robust, user friendly, very effective, and made with off the shelf parts.
    It's the 2nd best mod I've made to my 2015/2016 ST369RL.
    It took about 10 hours from the time I started to gut the Kan-Leak system until I turned the water back on.
    https://drive.google.com/folderview?...ldSZHZfSVo2N0U

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    Peggy and Jamey Matheny
    2016 Grand Design Solitude 5th Wheel 369RL Serial #G1104808
    As of 19 April 2019, 792 nights and 23,887 trailer miles.
    2015 Ford F-250 4X4 Super Cab SRW 148" WB 6.7L Powerstroke Diesel

  8. #8
    Site Sponsor Cate&Rob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by powerscol View Post
    I think one issue that causes problems is the limited size of the kant-leak (?SP) system. However on my unit with the blank wall that sets the face back from the door there is plenty of room to space out the valves to be able to use the PEX pipe and fittings. This is just my humble opinion. However I am guessing thoes Kant-leak panels comm from another supplier.
    Another solution is to move the black tank flush fitting to beside the tank outlet as was the case on my old unit. This would free up space.

    Just thinking here
    Keith
    Hi Keith,

    The Kantleak system is actually a pretty clever design . . . that suffered from obvious cost savings changes by the manufacturer. Earlier versions of the same design were all brass. It is the later plastic versions that got into problems. The four way valve is far simpler to use (in my opinion) than the multi valve Nautilus system that replaced it . . . and there are far fewer connections to leak. The Kantleak water heater bypass valve is also a clever design. It eliminates the need for a water heater outlet check valve which is often a problem component.

    Either water system will eventually suffer from leaks at soft tube to Pex fitting connections . . . until all the soft tube is replaced by Pex tubing. You can see what this involves in the Kantleak panel section of the attachment to post 1 of this thread https://www.mygrandrv.com/fo...968#post171968

    Rob
    Cate & Rob
    2015 Reflection 303RLS

  9. #9
    Big Traveler JCZhome's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EStahley View Post
    For those who are interested:


    Just want to make sure you all knew that we are still monitoring this. I do have a statement from our production and engineering team that I would like to post out for you. I know it may not be what all want to hear, and I am sure there will be differing opinions on it, but we did feel it needed to be posted! I will be cross posting this on some other threads as well!

    "The TS-25 standard for Flexible Hose allows the use for both, hot and cold waterlines. The RV industry has used the hose on the PEX barbed fittings for more than 15 years with success along with the use of the Oetiker clamp rings that have a 20 year warranty. This installation has been successful as the PEX fitting are listed just as the PEX tubing for high heat, just as the flexible hose and PEX tubing.

    Production uses the hose in order to have less fittings within the system as for every fitting such as an elbow, you reduce flow within the system 5% leaving consumers less satisfied with performance. The use of the flexible hose is actually better than using the hose assemblies listed as “risors” due to the risor having smaller fittings than our typical PEX fittings. Also, the risor type hose assemblies are less than stellar and often were breaking on the connectors…mostly due to not being equivalent to the PEX fittings we use. All of that said, using the listed flexible high pressure, high heat flexible hose along with our PEX fittings is truly a better install allowing a better system as the end result.

    RVIA along with an ADHOC committee are working with the testing agencies to produce a new listing for the installation as there are hoses out there, which we do not use, that are less than acceptable due to the ID of the hose and OD and the way they meet on the barbed fittings. We know there are other manufacturers using the hoses within the industry but currently, the size requirements are not within the standard for listing. We will have this update completed soon so all flexible hoses used within the RV industry will be the correct size and mate well with the fittings. Again, we do not use the hose that is less than stellar."
    There's a formula for figuring out the percentage loss of performance for each elbow and the loss of performance increase with each additional elbow. Since an RV is generally regulated at 45 psi to the rig, without having the formula at hand, I'd guess that the first elbow is more than 5% loss of flow performance and it's going to increase significantly with each additional elbow in that line.

    My Momentum 376TH has water coming in at 50 psi but I can assure you that it's not coming out at any of the faucets, even with the aerators removed, anywhere close to that.

    Having said all of that, your point remains the same and I understand what you're trying to communicate and I appreciate it Emily!
    SOLD my 2017 Momentum 376TH being pulled by a 2014 Ford F-350 Lariat, FX-4, Crew Cab, Longbed, Dually. Not pulling the 5er, catch me on my 2013 CVO Harley Ultra Classic.

    Map = states that we've stayed at least one night in our RV.

    http://visitedstatesmap.com/image/AR...TNTXUTWYsm.jpg

  10. #10
    Site Sponsor Cate&Rob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCZhome View Post
    There's a formula for figuring out the percentage loss of performance for each elbow and the loss of performance increase with each additional elbow. Since an RV is generally regulated at 45 psi to the rig, without having the formula at hand, I'd guess that the first elbow is more than 5% loss of flow performance and it's going to increase significantly with each additional elbow in that line.
    JCZ - When I re-plumbed my Reflection, I replaced soft hose with Pex routed around future service paths. This involved adding a lot of elbows. I was expecting flow reduction . . . but, this never materialized. My plan was to remove fixture flow restrictors if necessary, but this was not required.

    I have discovered that most of the flow restriction comes from outside the RV in the supply line from the campground. A pressure gauge within the RV system will show this. While the static campground pressure may reach 50 psi, this system pressure drops dramatically (to maybe 20 psi) if a single faucet is opened. This means that the supply line cannot maintain pressure at even a relatively low volume.

    Rob
    Cate & Rob
    2015 Reflection 303RLS

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