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  1. #1
    Rolling Along Gyro Gearloose's Avatar
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    Panhard Rod Suspension Modification

    Back from NorCal Rally....

    While talking with "J&G garage" and "JCR GD" and working on our Sippy Cups (minnow, funny we got Sippy Cups as part of our welcome package) some new thoughts started formulating. J&G garage does some racing so some other stuff came into the conversation that got me thinking. Also Henderson Lineup (they do suspension stuff, more for truck and also and resale of aftermarket stuff for 5th wheels/trailers) also did a presentation on suspension and I chatted with the guy.

    While watching J&G garage's rear end for an hour and a half... I mean the back of his trailer while going down I-5 and looking at his suspension, I started formulating these thoughts.


    • What are we solving for? broken spring spring hangers
    • What causes it? Lateral Movement
    • We saw a really cool 4 link suspensions on the back of a truck, so what keeps the lateral movement from happening on a 4-link? A Panhard Bar/Track Bar. Henderson Lineup did state that they had thought about this type of solution for 5th wheels and trailers
    • What is one of the problems this thread has brought up? Different length Spring Hangers
      • What is the problem with different length spring hangers? How to mount a cross brace that can be standard for all

    • What is the problem with a welded in brace? May have problems getting tanks out etc. and you need 1 per set of spring hangers. Also melting a lot of plastic with welding
    • Spring Hanger different width than frame is an issue with brackets
    • Is bolt on better? different schools of thought on that


    So this is the thought, why not Panhard Bar / Track Bar?

    • 1 per axle
    • 1 welded or potential "bolt on bracket" per axle to frame area / 2"x 2"
    • Easily removeable
    • Adjustable length
    • Could attachment to the the axle utilize the U-Bold spring plate?
    • This would help remove side to side play when walking around and parked
    • lighter that cross bracing
    • Can be done with or without 2"x 2" lift
    • Approximate Lateral movement with a 5 ft. bar and 3 in. of spring compression is less than .075in. May be much less depending on length and mounting angle
    • Simple reinforcement of hangers can still be done if desired.
    • Could potentially be adjusted to keep axles in side to side alignment


    That's the thought and I'm sticking to it.....

    Sorry if I am redundant with someone else's idea of the same thing, I didn't read all the other texts since I've been gone. Just trying to get the thoughts written down.

    Pat
    Pat&Marlene Gyrogearloose - 2010 Itasca Meridian 34y - 6.7 w/Allison 6spd - Jeep Wrangler Rubicon - previous Reflection 303RLS

  2. #2
    Site Sponsor Cate&Rob's Avatar
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    Pat . . . I LIKE this idea! Whatever was in those sippy cups must have been good stuff !

    Control the lateral axle movement that is flexing the hanger brackets in the first place . . . this is so simple that it is genius. A panhard bar.
    We have to think about how the lateral load is transferred to the opposite frame rail directly above the axle . . . but this could be incorporated into an inside center hanger reinforcement. Putting a LH/RH threaded sleeve in the panhard rod (like a steering linkage) would allow fine tuning.

    Rob
    Cate & Rob
    2015 Reflection 303RLS

  3. #3
    Big Traveler
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    The panhard bar can be done with a riser bracket on the axle. They make clamp on models to bolt to the axle tube. Someone stated to use the upper extended threads on the U bolts. Great idea for a custom build and easy mounting solution. The other side of the bar would need a frame mounted drop bracket so the bar runs parallel to the axle. Asked the question in #63 and nobody bit due to complexity.
    MidwestCamper

    Jim & Dawn
    Near Milford, Michigan
    2017 Imagine 2600RB
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  4. #4
    Site Sponsor Cate&Rob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MidwestCamper View Post
    The panhard bar can be done with a riser bracket on the axle. They make clamp on models to bolt to the axle tube. Someone stated to use the upper extended threads on the U bolts. Great idea for a custom build and easy mounting solution. The other side of the bar would need a frame mounted drop bracket so the bar runs parallel to the axle. Asked the question in #63 and nobody bit due to complexity.
    Jim - You are absolutely right that you raised the idea of a panhard rod way back in post 63 and I blew right past it because I was so focussed on hanger reinforcement. I am still not convinced that hanger reinforcement is not required . . . particularly for those of us with the longer hangers, but the panhard idea makes a lot more sense to me than trying to reinforce the spring hangers by tying them cross trailer to each other.

    Rob
    Cate & Rob
    2015 Reflection 303RLS

  5. #5
    Rolling Along Gyro Gearloose's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MidwestCamper View Post
    The panhard bar can be done with a riser bracket on the axle. They make clamp on models to bolt to the axle tube. Someone stated to use the upper extended threads on the U bolts. Great idea for a custom build and easy mounting solution. The other side of the bar would need a frame mounted drop bracket so the bar runs parallel to the axle. Asked the question in #63 and nobody bit due to complexity.
    MidwestCamper #63
    Quote Originally Posted by MidwestCamper View Post
    Since the lateral motion of the axle creates the bending on the hanger, I'm wondering if the hangers on each side are flexing in unison? If so, a brace would need to be fashioned that would transmit this force to the side of the I-beam. The real limiting issue is the fixed length spring bolts, or a brace could be made up to weld to the hanger side as Rob stated and run the brace up the side of the beam with a spacer block to fill the gap. The spacer could be bolted to the I beam. Or a Panhard bar?
    Hi Jim (Midwest Camper),

    Thanks for the input...

    Edit: Sorry I guess I didn't read the last four words on #63. So I guess I bit in a round about way and used your idea. Sorry...

    I'm with you in what you are saying in #63 and I think hangers flex in concert and I also agree that the force needs to be transmitted to both frame members (its also a fairly easy way to make a stronger bracket with frame to frame cross brace) . I'm thinking the frame bracket would be easier because there is no spacer because of the hanger offset and the little angle piece is not welded onto the inside of the frame. This bracket would be over the axle. So it could have a couple vertical hole in the frame and a couple of horizontal holes in the frame to secure the bracket. And if that is not enough the optional cross bar I was speaking of.

    I like the idea of using the extra thread on the U-Bolt to bold on the bracket on top of the spring. I was thinking of welding on a bracket to the stock spring plate, but probably not even close to strong enough. Maybe a whole new spring plate is order?

    Pat
    Pat&Marlene Gyrogearloose - 2010 Itasca Meridian 34y - 6.7 w/Allison 6spd - Jeep Wrangler Rubicon - previous Reflection 303RLS

  6. #6
    Long Hauler
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    My question or observation with the "pan-hard bar" is , The axel will still be able to twist. When watching the trailer suspension it is noticeable that there is sideways movement.
    However when moving around a corner or backing and turning the axels seem to go in different directions in a twisting pattern, back tire points outward front tire points inward. A bar tying the axel to the frame will stop the sideways motion but not the twisting motion.
    Maybe????

    Brian

  7. #7
    Rolling Along Gyro Gearloose's Avatar
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    Brian,

    I am only solving for lateral because that is what I think would be the primary force breaking the hangers. I think the twisting you are speaking of is inherent to having both the shackles in the middle between the tires. I think the only way to get around the twist would be a 4 link systems or ladder bars or something similar.

    Pat
    Pat&Marlene Gyrogearloose - 2010 Itasca Meridian 34y - 6.7 w/Allison 6spd - Jeep Wrangler Rubicon - previous Reflection 303RLS

  8. #8
    Rolling Along Gyro Gearloose's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cate&Rob View Post
    I don’t think the difference that we see in the front vs the rear tire when backing in a sharp turn is the tires moving fore/aft . . . I think it is up/down. Forced through the equalizer link in a manner similar to the braking interaction shown in the Lippert video. The panhard rod would ideally have a ball joint on each end so that it would control side-to-side motion of the axle but would have little affect on movement in any other direction.

    Rob
    Rob,

    Exactly... Panhard Bar must have Tie Rod Ends.

    Pat
    Pat&Marlene Gyrogearloose - 2010 Itasca Meridian 34y - 6.7 w/Allison 6spd - Jeep Wrangler Rubicon - previous Reflection 303RLS

  9. #9
    Big Traveler
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    The panhard bar on my race car has spherical rod ends at each end. One has left hand threads so the length can be adjusted. There are a bunch of different kinds available/

    Pat how about modeling a Watts Link instead of a panhard bar. Maybe could eliminate the additional side to side brace.
    Jim & Georgianne
    N. California
    2016 Reflection 29RS
    2008 Ford F-250 Super Duty PSD
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  10. #10
    Rolling Along Gyro Gearloose's Avatar
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    Doing some research and thought I would pass on some of the stuff. Trying to see if I am missing something stupid.

    Looking at a lot of pictures and Panhard bar installations on almost all of them have the crossbar reinforcement to the frame mounted bracket.

    Good explanation on how Panhard bars work, at least in racing.
    http://www.bedfordspeedway.com/toolbox_panhard.htm


    A little picture of positioning
    Attachment 15234

    There are a lot of brackets on performance websites that if the right one is found could be adapted to this solution. For example this Ford 9" axle mount for 3" OD tube. Pretty sure that is whats on my Reflection. This would be to high for the application but an example.
    Attachment 15235
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails ALL60180.jpg  
    Pat&Marlene Gyrogearloose - 2010 Itasca Meridian 34y - 6.7 w/Allison 6spd - Jeep Wrangler Rubicon - previous Reflection 303RLS

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