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  1. #101
    Seasoned Camper
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    All of this wiring harness talk reminds me that I heard that Winnibago does use wiring harnesses in their motorhomes. Plus they are noted for providing schematics and mechanical diagrams to any owner who asks. And since Winnibago now owns GD, maybe they might consider adding these into the towable lines.
    John and Karyn
    Hillsboro, Oregon
    2020 Reflection 150 Series 295RL

  2. #102
    Rolling Along
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigSwick View Post
    Tom, so the question of the day is: If you had taken the tour before you bought your RV, would you have still purchased a Grand Design? I don't think even the Prevost use any kind of pre-made wiring harness...
    That's a really good question and one I've wrestled with more than you know. I guess my answer would be decided based on money - i.e. limited budget or unlimited budget. If my budget was (some what) limited, unless I saw another 5er mass production manufacturer that just wowed me to no end, I would probably buy a GD Solitude. IMHO, GD hits the sweet spot when it comes to what you get at a certain price point. Not sure that makes sense. For example, their interiors are stylish, yet not so excessive or trendy or garish as to "date" their units 5 or 8 years down the road. Ever been in an RV with mauve colors or pickled oak cabinets? YUCK!! I also like the amenities/packages that are included in lieu of nickel & diming a purchaser. Now......

    If money wasn't limited, I'd probably seek out a custom builder such as Spacecraft, Luxe, New Horizons, etc. and I'd be camped out at their facility during the entire build process. Which I wouldn't wish on anybody seeings how much of a nit picky PITA I am.

    But.....BUT......knowing what I know now, if there was some way to trick a Chinese investor into bank-rolling me for a new start-up RV manufacturer, it would be awesome to gather up a team that was comprised of seasoned RV manufacturing folks that were frustrated with the status quo, manufacturing folks that had come from companies that employed state-of-the art manufacturing processes/techniques, create a self-contained Engineering department (design, R&D, Stress, Manufacturing, Tooling, etc.) and foster a workforce that was empowered and self-directed and a culture that focused on root causes/issues/processes/data driven solutions and not on people (IMHO, 99.8% of employees want to meet or exceed expectations. The ones that don't, weed themselves out). But the real satisfaction would be to create this "company" as if it were a Black Hole Project and then just "show up", out of the blue, with a product featuring things no one in the industry has or does and see the other manufacturers wrap themselves around the axle trying to catch up. Sound pie in the sky? Look around you and think back 10 years and I think you'll find that there was just one person that dared to do something different. As my Dad use to say, "Lead, follow or get the hell outta the way". Me??? I love leading and bucking the system.

    Tom

  3. #103
    Long Hauler
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    Tom

    I'm in when ever you want to start this thing.

    Brian

  4. #104
    Site Sponsor BigSwick's Avatar
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    Better watch what you ask for. With RVing being a multi billion dollar a year industry, somebody might just take you up on that offer.
    But hopefully it won't be the chinese, because the only chinese I want is hot and sour soup!

  5. #105
    Seasoned Camper Thorvald's Avatar
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    Can't agree more Tom. I worked for years for one of UTC's divisions and started out my Electronics career doing ATE (Automated Test Equipment) with GenRad and others. UTC has a quality program known internally as "ACE" and the course is called "ITO University" named after Yuzuru Ito.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuzuru_Ito

    It is an awesome program and they really stress the importance and totally indoctrinate you in it. It's one of those things that follow you for life afterwards (Root Cause, 5 Whys, fish bone diagrams, scatter charts, etc). They had excellent examples too from the Boeing and P&W examples. It is heavily pushed internally and you can spend a good better part of a year on various courses etc.

    My personal favourite was a new high bypass engine that was starting to have issues in the field. They setup a simple CAD diagram of the engine at the front of the assembly line and whenever a problem was reported in the field or found on the line they would stick a push-pin in that area on the drawing. Overtime a pattern emerged and they simply kept digging down into those areas to fix the problem. Dead simple example was but oh so powerful and anyone could understand it.

    ---

    Step one would be to reject the piece work model and hire permanent employees who work based on quality and not quantity.

    Cheers
    Tim
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  6. #106
    Seasoned Camper
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigSwick View Post
    Better watch what you ask for. With RVing being a multi billion dollar a year industry, somebody might just take you up on that offer.
    But hopefully it won't be the chinese, because the only chinese I want is hot and sour soup!
    Maybe not all Chinese investors are the same. A Chinese group bought up the company I work some five years ago. The company was in hibernation phase, making a few spare parts, but basically just keeping the lights on with nine staffers and a couple of part time workers.
    With the Chinese investment, production was resumed and millions were poured into everything from facilities improvement s to new CNC manufacturing equipment. Employment climbed to about 170.
    I think they are frustrated with the lack of progress we have made in improving production processes, but they continue to support us, albeit with somewhat less.
    But in my observation, it seems like travel trailer manufacturers are ripe for some continuous improvement processes and some kaizen.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
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  7. #107
    Seasoned Camper
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    Rob, just getting caught up on the forum after 2 months of house remodeling. You do good work, and you have the bug where you can't stop, like myself...just imagine how many campers we could rebuild!

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    Andrew in the Burgh
    2015 Reflection 317RST...Auction Rebuild

    See Thread Here:
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  8. #108
    Site Sponsor Steven@147's Avatar
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    Guys, Ive read through this thread. Like you I remember the better times when quality and pride in workmanship meant something. You didn't do a better job because it was forced on you buy regulations, you did it because you were proud of your skill and workmanship. You had the time and skill to do it right the first time. Today that is just about all but gone.

    I could ramble on about my days as a aviation electrons technician, quality assurance inspector, then quality assurance manager, 6 Sigma member and finally a classic / vintage vehicle restoration business owner. It doesn't matter a bit.

    Today it is what it is and seems like a job is just a job. Almost all manufacturers have dumbed down quality manufacturing so much over the years, its become common place and a low priority. Blame it on a subcontractor, get it done no matter how, your holding up production, get it done and shove it out the door. We'll fix it in the field. What the customer doesn't know wont hurt them, or us on the average. You all know how it goes. Quality is only important, if it doesn't slow down production, and doesn't cost anything.

    Quality is still there in certain areas like aviation, aerospace for example, but I suspect only because of what happens if it isn't there.
    Lets face it, in today's manufacturing environment if they're not required to do it, they wont. And truth, honor, integrity is really lacking in some of today's society and business.

    So we people that care about doing something right, pride and quality, end up taking whatever we buy and reworking it, to what it should have been in the first place. Or use it till it falls apart, trade it in or throw it away and buy another.

    With specific regard to the RV industry, what can I say, I find it unpleasant. The RV industry isn't nearly as regulated as other industries, they know it and exploit it. Tires, unbelievable weight numbers, sloppy plumbing & wiring, cheap cost suspension, just barely good enough, etc. We can always blame it on our subcontractors.
    But it hasn't changed my plans on going fulltime RVing. Now I am just more on-guard and expect that I'm being lied to and I'll have to verify it myself and whatever I buy I'll have to make improvements on my own. I'll pick the best unit I can afford from owner recommendations for quality manufacturing and service after the sale and fix it from there.

    Depressing, yup, but it is what it is.
    Steve & Tami Cass - Escapee's, FMCA Members, Texas Fulltimers Since July 2020
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  9. #109
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    I come from an Education training background and even I know of Edward Deming! Grand Design needs to realize quality control starts with the assembler. I realize that they have achieved their 10 year goals in only five years, but at what cost? I will be checking under the belly come spring!
    Happy campers! / Lorna & Eric and our little furball, Finnan, Canandaigua, NY
    2019 GMC Sierra Denali HD 6.6L Duramax Turbo Diesel, Allison 6 speed transmission, 5th wheel setup, Pullrite SuperGlide 20k
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  10. #110
    Seasoned Camper Da Breeze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cate&Rob View Post
    Hi Brian,

    It would be interesting see a picture of what's behind the easily removable pass through wall . . . to get a sense of whether the hidden stuff has also improved from what we have come to expect. They have indeed spent a huge amount of resources on improving everything visible, before it leaves their production facilities. "Inspecting" for quality means only visible things . . . by definition. I would hope that this is improving! for the effort they are putting into this.

    Rob
    Well, Here's some pics from the basement area showing the back of the Nautilus plumbing panel. This looks worse than it really is, I think, as water lines need arches to avoid crimping. One shot is of all the wires leading into power panel, but this was taken when installing a 12V receptacle so I didn't look around for much.
    Hate to say it, but I have to agree with the posters who say GD doesn't build the type of quality they tout. Good case in point, my 307 MKS was supposed to have 6K axles installed. Well, when ordering new seals to do a bearing repack (after a year and traveling cross-country and back), it became clear GD had installed 5,200 axles by mistake !!!

    GD was very good at arranging to have the axles swapped out, but it was a lengthy nightmare and the only good that came out of it was that I received new Dexter 6K axles with
    3,000 lb springs, ALL new wheels and tires, as well as a 6K to 8K Equa-Flex suspension. As luck would have it, the installing dealer forgot to order the wet bolt attachment kit, so I had to wait and return again to have the correct Dexter wet bolts installed.... MAJOR PIA ....BUT, GD took care of it all, so gotta give BIG credit to their Customer Service Dept.

    Reminds me of an old saying.... " There's never time to do it right, BUT.... there's always time to do it AGAIN !!!

    Michael
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