Electric Vehicles and taxes

**BabyBober** · 01-07-2019, 02:38 PM

Question for the Electric vehicle proponents:

Electric cars have been out a few years and Electric trucks are being hyped up to be released "soon" all with big government incentives to get people to move to them. It all seems to good to be true. So how long before all these folks with electric vehicles get hit with a huge transportation tax bill? Will they be so happy with their electric vehicles when they get charged an extra 25 or 40 cents a mile to pay for the roads every year between federal and state highway taxes? Presently the roadways are all payed for in taxes charged on fuel. As mileage of vehicles has improved revenues to maintain the roads has gone down. this is one of the reasons for the state of many of our roads now. A workmate with his electric car loves to rub it in that he is using the roads "free" while I pay for them for him in my fuel taxes. Maybe I am just ranting because he is right but seriously though, as electric vehicles get more common place how long do you think the free ride will go on before the whole tax structure changes. Once it does fuel will inherently be cheaper because the taxes will not be part of the fuel cost but paid by the mile driven not by the gallon purchased and the per mile cost of all the electric vehicles goes way up because of it...

Jim

**backtrack2015** · 01-07-2019, 02:47 PM

It’s hard to say how long things will remain as they are. Simple problems are uncommonly hard to solve these days. Certainly the demand for electricity will also become a problem once electric vehicles become truly mainstream. I have noted in my neighborhood that any new Tesla is followed shortly by solar panels. The later being more about the environment and less about the electric rates for now. The rationale may be reversed in the future.

**Aridon** · 01-07-2019, 03:03 PM

Eventually you'll see a straight mileage tax on these vehicles likely paid at registration renewal and verified on sale / trade.

The government is designed for gridlock and it is very difficult to do much of anything. This has been amplified with people becoming more and more invested in their side. People's zeal for their political party can be almost religious. Funny how the information super highway has basically sent people further and further down their own echo chamber. People aren't interested in having their view challenged, they just want to confirm their bias and the internet makes it easy to do.

All this makes change even harder to accomplish as people are much less likely now to cross sides. All or nothing.

**kevinpo** · 01-07-2019, 04:44 PM

Hi Jim,
Washington state is well on the way:
"WA Electric Vehicle (EV) Registration Renewal Fee. When renewing vehicle registration for an electric vehicle, you must pay $100 in addition to any other fees and taxes required by the State."
They are also considering a tracking device attached to all vehicles that will measure the miles you drive and tax you accordingly.

Regards,
Kevin

**howson** · 01-08-2019, 05:46 AM

This thread could tempt individuals to make political statements. Please do not. If any are posted they will be removed without any further notification from a moderator.

-Howard

P.S. Who determines if a post is political? All of us (including you)! Report it if there's a post that meets your definition of "political".

cc: @Rob / @Jim

**BabyBober** · 01-08-2019, 05:57 AM

Originally Posted by howson

This thread could tempt individuals to make political statements. Please do not. If any are posted they will be removed without any further notification from a moderator.

-Howard

P.S. Who determines if a post is political? All of us (including you)! Report it if there's a post that meets your definition of "political".

cc: @Rob / @Jim

Howard, that wasn’t my attempt, I apologize. One of the big lures in hybrid and electric vehicles is the long term cost saving, or so it seems from those around me that have them. I have been tempted myself but... Once the “sponsored” incentives go away will the same desire be there? At my work place there are currently complementary charging stations (for now) to make it even more enticing.

EDIT: Also just to clarify, personally the advantages of the torque available (especially as campers that tow), the efficiency of direct drive motors, less maintenance, etc are all very compelling arguments that I believe point us this way as battery technology and capacity improve. Unfortunately what I am personally seeing is those are not the reasons units are being purchased by many today but rather the cost per gallon in fuel savings and rebates.

Jim

**Jerryr** · 01-08-2019, 07:37 AM

I can see that other states will follow Washington state and apply additional annual registration fees. There’s lots of chatter on forums about this potential. I personally would not object to some sort of cost to contribute to road taxes.

I have owned a Hybrid since 2005 (Prius, Lexus CT200h and current Lexus RX450h)
I’ve also owned an electric car for the past 4 years (2015 Nissan Leaf and current 2018 Nissan Leaf)

The Leaf is our daily driver and it’s an amazing vehicle. It’s comfortable, silent, nimble, instant torque and easy to park. There are free charging stations in most areas. Local shopping malls have free charging stations at the front of the mall. In addition it’s packed with technology. It had Adaptive Cruise, Assisted Steering, and a really useful iPhone app. I routinely use the app to turn on the AC 5 minutes before leaving a restaurant.

Cost to run:
@ 10 cents/kWh it costs me 2 cents/mile to drive when I charge at home.
With no oil changes needed, In the 4 years of Leaf ownership my total maintenance cost was $6.30 for a pair of wiper blade inserts.

Incentives: I’ve saved $15,000 in income tax with twice using the $7,500 tax credit.

Cost to own:
My 2015 Leaf had an MSRP of $34,000. Nissan had a $5,000 rebate and dealer discounted it another $5,000 so that brought it down to $24,000. Then with the $7,500 tax credit the cost was $16,500. Three years later I traded it in on a 2018 Leaf and got $12,500 trade in value. So depreciation cost to own for 3 years was $4,000.

The down side of the Leaf is range. Our 2018 has a range of about 140 miles. That’s great for daily local travel within a 60 mile radius from the house but not for traveling.

My electric bill went up an average of $20/month charging our Leaf at home to drive 1,000 miles/month.

Check out my tag

This is the app. You can see it’s 88% charged and estimated range about 142 miles.

**Jerryr** · 01-08-2019, 07:47 AM

Originally Posted by backtrack2015

It’s hard to say how long things will remain as they are. Simple problems are uncommonly hard to solve these days. Certainly the demand for electricity will also become a problem once electric vehicles become truly mainstream. I have noted in my neighborhood that any new Tesla is followed shortly by solar panels. The later being more about the environment and less about the electric rates for now. The rationale may be reversed in the future.

Check out Tesla’s power wall. https://www.tesla.com/powerwall

**Canyonlight** · 01-08-2019, 07:55 AM

Jerry - great information....thanks, for sharing. I recall in some prior threads where you shared some of this.

I am curious as to cold or very cold climate use with "E" vehicles when using the heater. What type of heaters do these vehicles use, how effective are they and how does maximum heater output setting affect battery life/travel distance ? I recall the old VWs back in the day with air cooled engines and electric heaters where in the winter cold the heater did little to heat the vehicle unless driving for quite some time.

One of the folks in our area bought one of the early Teslas. He shared with me that in the winter he places a blanket on his lap along with keeping his winter coat, hat, and gloves on to drive. He shared high output use of the heater consumed significant battery power. He drives his Tesla about 20 miles one way to his retirement job and back home again. He does not have to work he just chooses to do so.

Dan

**backtrack2015** · 01-08-2019, 08:11 AM

Originally Posted by Jerryr

Check out Tesla’s power wall. https://www.tesla.com/powerwall

That is pretty cool (isn't almost everything from Tesla?), and I'm sure solar+battery solutions will help in many parts of the country. It looks like I need 4 of them for a total installed cost of $30K plus the solar to feed them. I'd probably get really into all that if I was in "the house" I wanted to keep. I'm certain one of our next three vehicles will be an electric. The next one will probably be the new Toyota RAV4 hybrid.

I do think a per-mile-driven fee paid at annual registration is the easiest and most equitable solution. Apply it to all vehicles and then drop the fuel tax except for any portions that are meant to discourage/compensate-for hydrocarbon combustion.