Ugh...Two timers club.

[Da Breeze]

Of all the interaction on the topic of GVWR, lawyers, and what might or might not be, this (IMO) is the best post (by @CWSWine) on the topic : https://www.mygrandrv.com/fo...l=1#post159459

Thanks Howard...

Very interesting posts and your timing is
Impeccable ....��
As I read through all those posts and the weight numbers, the posters overall consensus seems to be if you stay under RAWR , you really aren't overweight ??

My case is as follows , as an example ….

F-250 PSD 7.3

FAWR is 4,400 #
RAWR is. 6,084 #
Total. 10,484 #

Since the truck's frame is designed for the axles and suspension, I would reason the truck chassis is mechanically engineered to have a GVWR above the rating given my TV of 8,800 # .

I believe this is because of the difference in front and rear axle ratings.
Subtract GVWR of 8,800# from combined axle ratings of 10, 484 = 1,684 #
Subtract 4,400 # from 6,084 # = 1,684 #,

That is the difference between the FAWR and the RAWR.
Hence, Ford applies a GVWR of 8,800 # due to the lighter weight ratings of the front axle. Weakest link in the chain.

So, to sum up, IF a person were to load up to the rating of their rear axle, the truck will bear the load effectively and there is no liability.
In actuality, there IS a safety factor allowance built into the TV chassis and frame components.... as evidenced by the lighter rated front axle.
Is this logical ??

Now…in my scenario,
I bought the 2017 307 MKS because it has a UVW of 9,872 # and a pin weight of only 1,605 #. I opted for this model because much of the rigs’ weight is carried over the axles and with the frig on the rear wall, both opposing slides weigh within 100 # of each other. Very well balanced.

With a 10" I-beam frame, 16 " wheels, 6K axles and 3K suspension, it appeared G D designed this unit to be heavy duty (for a 32'+ trailer ??? ) The GVWR of the 307 is 12, 995 #
This is why I chose it, over the 303, to better mate with my TV pin capacity and the beefier build.
Not that I’ll ever load it even close, but it’s good knowing it’s over-built for integrity.

Hence, fully loaded, I weigh in at 18,750 #
which is far below the truck's GCWR of 20,000 #.

Michael LLAP

[Da Breeze]

I totally agree - it is ridiculous.

BTW - I am a member of the 2 timers club: F150 to F250. Thanks to this board, I may be the member of the 3 timers club as I'm scoping out the 320MKS and will need a F350.

Hey Drolaw,
I'll remember that driving through Texas next time !! Thanks for the Head's Up !!

I had the third 307 MKS built by GD in 2017 before they morphed it into the 320 and glad I did.... OTW I'd be joining that club as well !!
You're gonna LOVE the 320 layout. The desk is right next to frig so I scoot over for a cold one with NO SWEAT !!!
You can see some of my mods on my profile.

GD actually installed the wrong axles on my rig, Lippert 5,200 # , and I didn't notice until I came home from an 8 month cross-country trip last year !!!
True to form GD replaced them with new Dexter 6K axles, all new wheels ( even the spare was alloy) and all new tires and new suspension. !!

So happy for that cause, after 18,000 trip, was like getting a whole new lease on life !!!

Michael

[Calnca]

If anyone has actual facts or evidence to back up this "theory" . . . this would lend some credibility to this perspective. If this were true, it would make sense that RVs would be required to go through weigh scales and maintain documentation like commercial vehicles. I don't think this is required in any state or province.



Rob

Been in the insurance business, on the company, underwriting side for a long time. My advice would be to never give opponents attorney ANYTHING they can use against you.....because they will use anything and every trick known to man to improve their clients position.

What follows is what an attorney says on the matter:

Towing: Liability for Overweight Loads

Those towing are responsible for and must have knowledge of the load being transported, including its weight. Overloading a truck can affect its braking and steering, leading to potentially fatal accidents. An overloaded truck goes slower on upgrades, faster on downgrades, and when the brakes are forced to work too hard, they may fail. If the weight of the trailer is greater than that of the towing vehicle, there is a great likelihood of a loss of control, especially when traveling downhill. If you are involved in an accident while towing an oversized load where people were injured, you have exposed yourself to liability for negligence for towing beyond your vehicle’s maximum capacity.

If you tow beyond the manufacturer’s limits you are treading on very thin legal ice. Understanding your responsibilities differences is critical if you intend to tow in a safe and prudent manner. Towing beyond any vehicle’s manufacturer’s weight ratings-or without regard to the properly equipped limitations a vehicle’s manufacturer places on the towing vehicle relates directly to the law of negligence and places may expose you to liability.


Pickup salesman and ads always tout towing-capacity numbers.

But pickup buyers fail to read the fine print where two words – “properly-equipped” – firmly establish how the vehicle must be setup to achieve those figures.

Towing without regard to the properly-equipped limitations instantly makes the driver face the “Law of Negligence” charge in the eyes of an astute attorney and opens the door wide for a lawsuit.

“A plaintiff who was injured as a result of some negligent conduct on the part of a defendant is entitled to recover compensation for such injury from that defendant,” says Richard Alexander, a major injury trial attorney in San Jose, California, when asked about these towing issues.

“One test that is helpful in determining whether or not a person was negligent is to ask and answer the question whether or not, if a person of ordinary prudence had been in the same situation and possessed of the same knowledge, he or she would have foreseen or anticipated that someone might have been injured by or as a result of his or her action or inaction.

“If the answer to that question is ‘yes,’ and if the action or inaction reasonably could have been avoided, then not to avoid it would be negligence,” warns Alexander.


I guess if you have no assets to protect, and probably buy financial responsibility insurance limits only, then tow with whatever you feel works for you. I prefer not to give plaintiffs attorney any ammunition to use against me.

Cal

[Cate&Rob]

Hi Cal @Calnca,

I have previously read the quote highlighted in blue in your post. The phrasing and terminology indicate a very simplistic perspective and maybe some very limited knowledge. For example, nearly every 5th wheel is heavier than the tow vehicle and this does not create " a great likelihood of a loss of control".

If someone is faced with litigation over a crash involving a TV and trailer, being slightly over GCWR is likely to be way down the list of possible causes.
This would have to be proven to be the cause of the crash. There would be many possible causes investigated before they got to that one.
Were you travelling at a safe speed for the conditions?
Were there any component failures (brakes/wheel/tires) contributing to the crash?
Are there any (related) uncompleted recalls on either truck or trailer?
Were tire pressures correct for both the truck and the trailer?
Are there maintenance records for both the truck and the trailer? (particularly brakes)
(How many even know the LCI/Dexter brake inspection/maintenance schedule and comply with it?)

I personally know of several owners who make sure that they have substantial GCWR/RAWR/Payload margin . . . and have never had their trailer brakes disassembled and inspected as is required annually by the LCI maintenance schedule.

We all choose how we mitigate the risks we accept in towing an RV.
For me . . . I travel at the lower end of speed limits, make sure that both my truck and trailer disc brakes systems are in tip top condition, put larger brake lights on the back of the RV . . . and I have a top quality dash cam .

Rob

[Walaby]

If the weight of the trailer is greater than that of the towing vehicle, there is a great likelihood of a loss of control, especially when traveling downhill. Cal

So, I believe many many (maybe not all, but a vast majority, Im confident) of 5er owners, the trailer weight is greater than that of the towing vehicle, and still staying within payload capacity.

Mike

[howson]

As I read through all those posts and the weight numbers, the posters overall consensus seems to be...

There is anything but consensus on this issue, Michael, among the forum participants. That's why I point to the Reference Library thread when the "Can I Tow..." question is asked. All I strive to do is give the person who asks the question a chance to determine for themselves what is right for their situation. My opinion won't even get you a discount on a cup of coffee at Dunkin' Donuts...

[Calnca]

Rob,

No skin off my nose whatever you decide to do. Just KNOW from experience that in the event of a major occurrence that opposing legal counsel will use every little nuance to increase their clients position. During depositions, both sides will have "expert" witnesses saying, depending on which side is paying them, that you were within expected norms, or outside of same.

Hopefully you are never involved with a major occurrence, or any for that matter, and don't have to test the situation personally.

Cal

[Cate&Rob]

Rob,

No skin off my nose whatever you decide to do. Just KNOW from experience that in the event of a major occurrence that opposing legal counsel will use every little nuance to increase their clients position. During depositions, both sides will have "expert" witnesses saying, depending on which side is paying them, that you were within expected norms, or outside of same.

Hopefully you are never involved with a major occurrence, or any for that matter, and don't have to test the situation personally.

Cal

Hi Cal,

We are in complete agreement on your advice. My point is to let folks know that there is way more to this than just making sure you are under your various weight ratings and not paying attention to all the other factors. Both sides will have their expert witnesses . . . bin-there-dun-that LOL.

Rob

[MidwestCamper]

Rob,

No skin off my nose whatever you decide to do. Just KNOW from experience that in the event of a major occurrence that opposing legal counsel will use every little nuance to increase their clients position. During depositions, both sides will have "expert" witnesses saying, depending on which side is paying them, that you were within expected norms, or outside of same.

Hopefully you are never involved with a major occurrence, or any for that matter, and don't have to test the situation personally.

Cal

Cal,
Very well stated. Simply put, there is never a legitimate excuse to overload a truck or go beyond any of the labels listed in the doorjamb of a truck. The pattern I see is that there are those that spread the urban legends on a manufacture that over builds their truck, or they play games to avoid classifications, or my F250 is identical to a F350, or the payload label is for emissions, or a friend of my cousin is an engineer and says they are 10% overbuilt, or as long as I do not exceed my axle limits is all baloney. Most likely not being able to afford the proper rig is the excuse that never gets used. Its never a good idea to be over the limit on any labels listed in the door jamb of a truck. And we should never accept anything other than this simple premise.
Jim

[phonemannn]

Have you guys seen the video of the Anderson ultimate hitch? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78l-PadWAro
You think that tow rig was overloaded? The guys that make the hitch. Novices? Think not. For sure over loaded.
And I bet they have no issues either. IMO dont get carried away with the "Rules" sometimes.