Plumbing and Wiring Schematics

[Cate&Rob]

Hi Janice,

Why does Grand Design not make plumbing and wiring schematics available to owners ?
I have asked this question before . . . as have others.
This is information that I can find relatively easily for everything from my truck to my toaster.
Why not for my RV ?

Rob

[Paul & Deb]

I propose the answer has something to do with the fact it changes with every trailer and who is doing the work.

My reasoning is based in the very small but simple example that most all 337RLS units whose owners I have heard from have a 12v outlet under the china cabinet next to the triple toggle light switch .... not mine! Someone just didn't get around to it in my unit I suspect. I can't imagine GD would decide to eliminate that! There are ZERO 12v outlets, whether cigarette lighter style or USB style, in my unit. How much sense does that make. My last Keystone product (2011 model) had 1 behind the TV in the entertainment center, 1 in the bedroom next to the B/R TV mount and one in the pass through in case you add a TV there. My 2015 (December build) 337RLS, nothing, nadda, zippo!

[RamGunner]

When I covered the construction of a manufactured home years ago, I asked about that too. After all, they are built on an assembly line, so you'd think it would be easy. However, there are differences from unit to unit. The guy drilling holes for plumbing or wires may drill a hole a foot right or left, or on another stud space. Things like that happen.

It would be nice if they gave a line diagram showing HOW everything is connected (this doesn't usually change), and stating in general where wires or pipes are run from point to point.

When I had a site-built home constructed, I went over every afternoon and took photos of every stage from framing to finish. This way I know what was behind each wall, including plumbing and wiring. Even that's not a sure thing.

I know someone else that did the same thing with his place, and went to put a medicine cabinet in his bathroom. The photos showed nothing behind one wall, so he cut in. He went down, and everything was fine. When he started across, about halfway in he hit something very hard and metal. It was a vent pipe. It wasn't in the photo. It wasn't there when he took the photo after the plumbing was supposed to be done. He suspected someone forgot a step and had to come back the next day and fix it.

[Retread68]

I can not say how GDRV builds their units since I have not witnessed it, but several RV Mfgs use a pegboard layout for electrical wiring that is used for each RV model regardless of "options", then if options are requested above/beyond std build, those wires are run per the "build order". To name two plants that did it in years past: Jayco RV and Crossroads RV. Today those mfg's may not use the same method; however, both mfg's were able and willing to provide me the electrical layout for units when requested.

Running electrical circuits in a stick-built residential structure is different from RVs, so comparisons are "difficult". If an RV Mfg is building units without a master harness plan, there's going to be trouble. It is just hard for me to believe GDRV does not have the capability of providing at a minimum the basic plan. There may be some "legal" considerations that prevent GDRV from providing the information to anyone/everyone when they do not know whether the person receiving the information is capable of performing electrical modifications safely.

Does GDRV have the capability? - Probably. Does GDRV want to give it to everyone? - I can understand both Pros and Cons.

[GDRV Service]

Hi Janice,

Why does Grand Design not make plumbing and wiring schematics available to owners ?
I have asked this question before . . . as have others.
This is information that I can find relatively easily for everything from my truck to my toaster.
Why not for my RV ?

Rob

Hi Rob (@Cate&Rob),

Our drawings are very basic, and intended for our Production purposes only (as a guide). We do not use looms. We pull continuous run wire from spools, and wire runs vary by model.

Best regards,
~ Janice

[Cate&Rob]

Hi Janice,

Not what I wanted to hear . . . but thanks for the prompt reply.

As Grand Design product move out of the warranty period, more and more owners are going to be looking to do their own updates or hire non-GD facilities to make additions and modifications. I think GD has a huge opportunity here, to (maybe) be the only coach builder with plumbing and wiring schematics in the owners manuals.

This would not be that difficult to accomplish. Hire an engineering student with CAD skills, for the summer, and have him/her draw up schematics of what your assemblers are building. Sort of "reverse engineering" but would get the job done.

Rob

[Abqscott]

I don't know how well this shows up, this is a chaffed wire out of a fire alarm in our office that is 6 years old that was inside a fire alarm that shorted out that wouldn't shut off till fixed. It's in a sealed unit that does not move on a classroom wall. This wire chaffing is caused by minor vibrations in our building, expansion and contraction, heating up and cooling. My point is everybody at some point, some sooner or later are going to have a failure due to poor planning or installation techniques that are so easy to avoid. I just don't think any consideration is given to wire and plumbing chaffing issues. I guess when your warranties are only one or two years long you can get away with this. When a manufacturer has the beans to offer longer and better warranties, maybe then this very simple item to fix in production will happen.

[offtohavasu]

Maybe the forum can set up a Q&A session (as long as people keep it civil) with a Quality Control representative and/or one of the 3 bosses to discuss some of these issues folks have been experiencing. It will help them address areas of concern, and give some owner some piece of mind and possibly to some fixes.

[Cate&Rob]

This discussion is wandering a little off track from my original request to Grand Design.
I was looking for wiring (and plumbing) schematics . . . drawings of how components are connected together.

The quality of how the wiring is actually done is a separate topic. Elsewhere on this forum, Grand Design has made a commitment to add inspection of the "wiring rat's nests" to their regular executive reviews. As I have noted previously, I have a lot of experience with boat wiring, and if this is not done to ABYC standards, you won't be able to get your boat insured. My (limited) RV experience is that "normal" RV wiring wouldn't come close to meeting minimum marine requirement. How is it that two "vehicles" that get kicked around in similar ways on a regular basis . . . can have such different requirements ??

I think these are equally important . . . but separate . . . topics.

Rob

[Abqscott]

Rob, sorry for getting on my soap box and taking your request off track to GD, but if you have not figured it out, there are no two installations the same on the same model. The installers are given guidance as to what needs to be run but it is totally left up to them how they actually do it. Or so it appears. I have now had a chance to look at many of these units as well as other brands and they are rarely ever run the same. You can't believe the pictures you can get behind a sealed bulkhead with an iPhone. It's scary actually. So I don't think you will ever get more than a basic idea of what connects to what, electrically or plumbing wise. It is left up to the talent of the installer and the quality control of the supervisor on duty. Thank goodness GD does such a great job assembling the main assembly. The changes we would like will happen with GD in time as they have already proven with the way they handle customer service.