Reflection 150 series with tool box.

**Rapid1** · 02-11-2019, 08:34 PM

Originally Posted by SouthTX

First, I totally agree with your suggestion to select a TV based on actual tongue/pin weight, but I think we need to be very clear about the yellow sticker payload on both the RV and TV.

I just want to be very clear what the yellow sticker GVWR really is so that people new to RV'ing won't think TV payload - and choice of RV - is restricted by the yellow door sticker. The manufacturer can, within reason, adjust this GVWR weight for marketing purposes. For instance, I understand that Massachutes considers a truck over 10,000 as commercial so Ford offers the same F250 with a GVWR of 10,000 or 9,900. My F350 can be ordered with a GVWR or 10,000 or 11,500. Peruse the truck manufacturers' web pages and you'll find all sorts of idiosyncrasies such as this. Some states base registration cost on GVWR, others base license requirements on it. In my state of Texas, I can pull my 13,995 fifth wheel with my SRW F350 with a class c (car) drivers license. Rate both vehicles on their actual axle weights and the total would likely be greater than 26,000 and a class A non-commercial license would be required.

You won't find a clear explanation of this anywhere. The manufacturer is not going to overtly state that they offer various GVWR's to allow buyers to evade taxes, but ask anyone who runs a fleet of trucks and they'll give you a wink. Think about it, if this isn't true, then why is there another door sticker that lists gross axle weight ratings that total greater than GVWR.

As RV'ers and non-commercial operators, members of this forum are highly unlikely to be scaled so this little GVWR game doesn't affect us, but RV'ers need to know this bit of trivia to avoid buying to much truck because a salesman is showing them one with an artificially low GVWR. By the same token, RV'ers do need to know when they need to upgrade their drivers license.

Probably more than you wanted to know. Time to pop a bowl of popcorn and sit back.

Absolutely right brother...I'm so amazed that so many people don't get this. The yellow sticker is all about money...for DMV in commercial environments. In the beginning, it was about emission requirements. I was there...

This whole argument separates those who understand and those who just believe what they read...some people are educated beyond their intelligence...

**MidwestCamper** · 02-12-2019, 04:48 AM

Originally Posted by SouthTX

First, I totally agree with your suggestion to select a TV based on actual tongue/pin weight, but I think we need to be very clear about the yellow sticker payload on both the RV and TV.

I just want to be very clear what the yellow sticker GVWR really is so that people new to RV'ing won't think TV payload - and choice of RV - is restricted by the yellow door sticker. The manufacturer can, within reason, adjust this GVWR weight for marketing purposes. For instance, I understand that Massachutes considers a truck over 10,000 as commercial so Ford offers the same F250 with a GVWR of 10,000 or 9,900. My F350 can be ordered with a GVWR or 10,000 or 11,500. Peruse the truck manufacturers' web pages and you'll find all sorts of idiosyncrasies such as this. Some states base registration cost on GVWR, others base license requirements on it. In my state of Texas, I can pull my 13,995 fifth wheel with my SRW F350 with a class c (car) drivers license. Rate both vehicles on their actual axle weights and the total would likely be greater than 26,000 and a class A non-commercial license would be required.

You won't find a clear explanation of this anywhere. The manufacturer is not going to overtly state that they offer various GVWR's to allow buyers to evade taxes, but ask anyone who runs a fleet of trucks and they'll give you a wink. Think about it, if this isn't true, then why is there another door sticker that lists gross axle weight ratings that total greater than GVWR.

As RV'ers and non-commercial operators, members of this forum are highly unlikely to be scaled so this little GVWR game doesn't affect us, but RV'ers need to know this bit of trivia to avoid buying to much truck because a salesman is showing them one with an artificially low GVWR. By the same token, RV'ers do need to know when they need to upgrade their drivers license.

Probably more than you wanted to know. Time to pop a bowl of popcorn and sit back.

South TX,
I will disagree that the yellow tag on a truck is adjusted based on nothing. If Ford raised payload, one or more components such as the cooling system, final drive selection with a higher ratio, tires or suspension would have to be modified. Trucks today are certified and go through stringent durability tests so if Ford was being dishonest in the past, they certainly cannot do this today. Can you confirm nothing changed between these two payloads other than the sticker? There is also a gray tag that will also spell out axle loading that's in the door but the simple thought of matching max GVW of the trailer and max tongue weight based on percentage simply works.

**SouthTX** · 02-12-2019, 06:40 AM

Originally Posted by MidwestCamper

South TX,
I will disagree that the yellow tag on a truck is adjusted based on nothing. If Ford raised payload, one or more components such as the cooling system, final drive selection with a higher ratio, tires or suspension would have to be modified. Trucks today are certified and go through stringent durability tests so if Ford was being dishonest in the past, they certainly cannot do this today. Can you confirm nothing changed between these two payloads other than the sticker? There is also a gray tag that will also spell out axle loading that's in the door but the simple thought of matching max GVW of the trailer and max tongue weight based on percentage simply works.

Go to a manufacturer's order guide or their webpage where you can spec a new truck. Select different GVWR's and you'll see that nothing else changes. Select different spring packages (snow plow, camper, etc) and see if the GVWR changes.

GVWR is just paperwork that allows buyers to game the system for the purposes of licensing and registration. Go by axle weights to see what a truck can really carry.

**xrated** · 02-12-2019, 12:29 PM

Originally Posted by SouthTX

First, I totally agree with your suggestion to select a TV based on actual tongue/pin weight, but I think we need to be very clear about the yellow sticker payload on both the RV and TV.

I just want to be very clear what the yellow sticker GVWR really is so that people new to RV'ing won't think TV payload - and choice of RV - is restricted by the yellow door sticker. The manufacturer can, within reason, adjust this GVWR weight for marketing purposes. For instance, I understand that Massachutes considers a truck over 10,000 as commercial so Ford offers the same F250 with a GVWR of 10,000 or 9,900. My F350 can be ordered with a GVWR or 10,000 or 11,500. Peruse the truck manufacturers' web pages and you'll find all sorts of idiosyncrasies such as this. Some states base registration cost on GVWR, others base license requirements on it. In my state of Texas, I can pull my 13,995 fifth wheel with my SRW F350 with a class c (car) drivers license. Rate both vehicles on their actual axle weights and the total would likely be greater than 26,000 and a class A non-commercial license would be required.

You won't find a clear explanation of this anywhere. The manufacturer is not going to overtly state that they offer various GVWR's to allow buyers to evade taxes, but ask anyone who runs a fleet of trucks and they'll give you a wink. Think about it, if this isn't true, then why is there another door sticker that lists gross axle weight ratings that total greater than GVWR.

As RV'ers and non-commercial operators, members of this forum are highly unlikely to be scaled so this little GVWR game doesn't affect us, but RV'ers need to know this bit of trivia to avoid buying to much truck because a salesman is showing them one with an artificially low GVWR. By the same token, RV'ers do need to know when they need to upgrade their drivers license.

Probably more than you wanted to know. Time to pop a bowl of popcorn and sit back.

Axle weight ratings are just one component of the total picture that results in a GVWR for the truck. Combined axle weight ratings will always be higher than the GVWR. Other components that are part of the equation are tires, wheels, brakes, suspension, frame, axle size, and probably some things I missed. The team of engineers that design the truck obviously take ALL of those components into consideration and assign a GVWR. Every single truck manufacturer will also state.....Do not EVER exceed ANY of the rated weight numbers. To me, that doesn't mean you get to pick and choose which weight rating is "OK" to go over, you are very clearly told to NEVER exceed ANY of them....GVWR, GCVWR, PAYLOAD or Cargo Carrying Capacity, RAWR, FAWR, Tire load rating, and any others I may have left out. What a person chooses to do with that warning is entirely up to them, but if they exceed them, that still doesn't make it right

**howson** · 02-12-2019, 01:40 PM

Originally Posted by xrated

Axle weight ratings are just one component of the total picture that results in a GVWR for the truck. Combined axle weight ratings will always be higher than the GVWR. Other components that are part of the equation are tires, wheels, brakes, suspension, frame, axle size, and probably some things I missed. The team of engineers that design the truck obviously take ALL of those components into consideration and assign a GVWR. Every single truck manufacturer will also state.....Do not EVER exceed ANY of the rated weight numbers. To me, that doesn't mean you get to pick and choose which weight rating is "OK" to go over, you are very clearly told to NEVER exceed ANY of them....GVWR, GCVWR, PAYLOAD or Cargo Carrying Capacity, RAWR, FAWR, Tire load rating, and any others I may have left out. What a person chooses to do with that warning is entirely up to them, but if they exceed them, that still doesn't make it right

Jumping right in, eh?

This is, I think, the favorite topic to debate and discuss on this forum. The subject of "best tire" is one we like to banter about, too.

**xrated** · 02-12-2019, 02:03 PM

Originally Posted by howson

Jumping right in, eh?

This is, I think, the favorite topic to debate and discuss on this forum. The subject of "best tire" is one we like to banter about, too.

Yea, I guess so. I can't count the number of times I've given advice on towing and weight limits, etc. I learned that lesson the hard way when I bought a 2011 F250 CrewCab 4x4 Diesel, figuring it would tow about any trailer I put behind it. So several years later when I got ready to buy my first trailer, I realized that the payload on the truck was horribly lacking.....2148 lbs to be exact. I had planned to buy a 38-39' 5ver toy hauler and ended up getting a smaller tow behind. The nail in the coffin was when I decided to add an aux tank for more diesel fuel and quickly learned I was over payload by more than I was comfortable with. I put my mistake to a good cause though, I learned a LOT about weight ratings and how all of that tires together. Next truck is my current truck...F350 CrewCab Dually diesel with 5270 lbs of payload.

**CWSWine** · 02-12-2019, 02:33 PM

Originally Posted by SouthTX

. Think about it, if this isn't true, then why is there another door sticker that lists gross axle weight ratings that total greater than GVWR.

Very Simple Why the Axle Ratings are different than GVWR. A little reading and you will understand that GVWR is Chassis Rating and has nothing to do with Axle Ratings. This artilcle has been reprinted in RAM, Ford and GM month news letters. I will provide a link to the article.

https://www.ntea.com/NTEA/Member_ben...rk_trucks.aspx

Often, GVWR and gross vehicle weight (GVW) are thought to be the same, but they are not. A truck’s GVWR is the maximum weight rating established by the chassis manufacturer. GVW is the total weight of the truck and payload at a point in time.

There’s a common misconception that a truck’s GVWR is determined by adding gross axle weight ratings (GAWRs) together for all axles. Although this was a common way of calculating GVWR many years ago, it’s no longer an accurate method. The chassis manufacturer task of establishing a vehicle GVWR is much more difficult today due to advancement of safety system standards and how vehicles meet these requirements. This is why many trucks have a GVWR much lower than the combined axle ratings. It is not uncommon for a truck with a GVWR of 19,500 pounds to have a front axle rated at 7,500 pounds and a rear axle rated at 14,700 pounds. Safety standards that apply to braking, vehicle stability, and chassis manufacturer internal standards for durability, dynamic stability and handling can restrict GVWR even though the sum of the axle ratings exceeds 22,000 pounds. In this instance, the OEM set the GVWR at 19,500 pounds based on test results and vehicle dynamic performance to ensure a safe, reliable truck.
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As a company or fleet, you’re placing your employees in these vehicles. It is very important to company wellbeing and employee safety to make sure the trucks you purchase are designed for their intended purposes, and GVWR and GCWR are specified properly for safe, efficient operation.
By Bob Raybuck Director of Technical Services NTEA “

**howson** · 02-12-2019, 03:09 PM

Originally Posted by xrated

Yea, I guess so. I can't count the number of times I've given advice on towing and weight limits, etc. I learned that lesson the hard way when I bought a 2011 F250 CrewCab 4x4 Diesel, figuring it would tow about any trailer I put behind it. So several years later when I got ready to buy my first trailer, I realized that the payload on the truck was horribly lacking.....2148 lbs to be exact. I had planned to buy a 38-39' 5ver toy hauler and ended up getting a smaller tow behind. The nail in the coffin was when I decided to add an aux tank for more diesel fuel and quickly learned I was over payload by more than I was comfortable with. I put my mistake to a good cause though, I learned a LOT about weight ratings and how all of that tires together. Next truck is my current truck...F350 CrewCab Dually diesel with 5270 lbs of payload.

Almost exactly my story, too. Look at my profile and you'll see a picture of two trucks. The '17 250 Platinum was bought new--and then I learned about "The Sticker" (through this forum). The 250 was traded for the (used) '17 Platinum 350 DRW I have now. No more payload issues!

**Chiefblueman** · 02-12-2019, 03:16 PM

Originally Posted by SouthTX

Go to a manufacturer's order guide or their webpage where you can spec a new truck. Select different GVWR's and you'll see that nothing else changes. Select different spring packages (snow plow, camper, etc) and see if the GVWR changes.

GVWR is just paperwork that allows buyers to game the system for the purposes of licensing and registration. Go by axle weights to see what a truck can really carry.

I don't know if your premise applies to all makes and models but I did compare my particular vehicle, a 2016 Silverado HD2500 Duramax 4X4 CC std. box to the 3500. These are Chevrolet specs, base model to base model.

Base curb weight: 2500 - 7392lbs
3500 - 7395lbs

GVWR 2500 - 10,000
3500 - 11,500

Payload 2500 - 2583
3500 - 4080

The 3500 weighs 3lbs more than the 2500. The 3500 has a GVWR of +1500lbs over the 2500. The 3500 payload is +1497, reflecting the 3lb curb weight difference.
Brake and axle part numbers are the same, there appears to be very little difference, if any, between these trucks. The 3lb curb weight difference is probably in the tires.

This may not hold true for other makes, etc. In my particular case, I wouldn't feel unsafe if I were to exceed my "paper" payload and stay within my tire and axle ratings. YMMV. My axle ratings total 11,500lbs. The tire ratings exceed the axle ratings. I seriously doubt my chassis will fold up or some such if I'm over payload.

SRW to DRW, now that's a different story.

**MidwestCamper** · 02-12-2019, 03:46 PM

Originally Posted by SouthTX

Go to a manufacturer's order guide or their webpage where you can spec a new truck. Select different GVWR's and you'll see that nothing else changes. Select different spring packages (snow plow, camper, etc) and see if the GVWR changes.

GVWR is just paperwork that allows buyers to game the system for the purposes of licensing and registration. Go by axle weights to see what a truck can really carry.

SouthTX,

I've not looked so much into Ford trucks but for GM trucks (I am not a spokesperson for GM) the yellow tag payload is the "As Optioned" payload. Years ago, manufactures were tweaking the curb weight on trucks with a strategy of leaving off items that could be deleted. Since SAE certification, your yellow tag sticker on payload is accurate. At least on a GM truck. Its about many factors including the powertrain, wheels, tires (yes even P tires), suspension etc. Before SAE ratings, manufactures have been so competitive (think racing) where they were looking for an edge. Inexcusable but none the less, its in the past. See link below.

https://www.autoblog.com/2014/08/08/...late-curb-wei/